This was an emotional episode on the Streets MN podcast where I shifted from the role of co-producer to guest. I shared my personal experience with disability, accessibility, and my temporary physical disability. The Department of Natural Resources (DNR) recently acquired powered wheelchairs with tank treads which will make several Minnesota state parks more accessible.
Streets MN is a news site and podcast for transportation and land use information in Minnesota
Learn more about all-terrain track chair rental, trails, and more on the Minnesota DNR website.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Drew: When you broke your foot, you spoke to me about just being frustrated because you were just kind of starting to get, so, uh, you, you’d been, you’d been training for training for big hikes and for enjoying yourself in the outdoors, and it kind of broke, broke everything. Your mobility’s limited. Yeah. What does, what is this trip like for you?
[00:00:28] Sherry: I’ve been really… [voice wavers] I love nature and I love summer, and I love getting outdoors and I love hiking and um, I’m getting to see dragon flies and wildflowers and sumac and all the things I can’t see out my front window and right now I’m in a place where I can’t really even use the sidewalks ’cause they’re too uneven for the mobility devices I have at home.
Um, so this is incredible.
[00:01:06] Ian: Welcome to the Streets.mn Podcast, the show where we highlight how transportation and land use can make our communities better places. Coming to you from beautiful Seward, Minneapolis, Minnesota. I am your host Ian r Buck State Parks are a wonderful amenity, meant to be used by everybody, but they do present unique challenges for designing accessibility.
Last summer during a trip to Bemidji producer Stina Neel noticed a powered wheelchair with tank treads that was available for visitors to use on the parks hiking trails. And she decided to research the heck out of the program for a podcast episode. I’ll let her take it from here.
[00:01:47] Stina: So real fast, I wanna give a little disclaimer for us and the listeners.
Accessibility is a huge topic. It contains countless stories, technology, ability, levels, physical disabilities, and so on. And as you know, our episodes are less than an hour long. So today we are chatting about a specific physical disability and. One of the many, many adaptive technologies available to allow visitors to access our gorgeous state parks and trail systems.
That also means that we’re planning to explore more stories of how urban design and transportation planning are making our spaces more accessible and welcoming to all Minnesotans as well as visitors. While we have some stories already in the works, if you are listening and you have a pitch or you have a story to tell, please let us know.
For language purposes, we’re going to use the wording and phrasings recommended by the Americans with Disabilities Act. That includes person first language and talking about the tools and accommodations that allow folks to do things rather than focusing on what they can’t. And we highly recommend that listeners learn about how to talk about disabilities and accessibility in ways that are supportive and preferred by our neighbors who are living with disabilities.
[00:02:57] Sherry: That sounds about right. Alright, that sounds good.
[00:02:59] Stina: Great. Let’s get into it. Within my world. Yeah, thanks. So we’re gonna hear from Sherry now, and we’re also going to hear clips of your. Adventure.
[00:03:10] Sherry: Yes. Yes. And to celebrate this whole thing, we are using the context of the outdoors because I am so cooped up even now with my disability, uh, that we are sitting on my front patio and you’ll hear the sounds of my neighborhood as we’re talking.
[00:03:30] Stina: So Sherry, you, you’re a co-producer here at Streets.mn Podcast. Um, can you. Kind of talk about why this topic is, is special to you right now?
[00:03:41] Sherry: Well, yeah, it’s, uh, it’s been special to me for a long time. Um, I started as an educator, uh, way back in, uh, two thou… well, no, 1997, um, where I was sort of always attuned to IEPs and individual education plans working with my students when I was a high school teacher.
And I didn’t give it a whole bunch more thought, um, until I had my child, um, in 2007. And Maxie, uh, is autistic and. I’ve, as I grew older, I learned that I was also autistic, by the way, a lot of autistic people prefer non-person first language. But then about June rolled around and I broke my foot, a spiral fracture that is not healing, and everybody told me that it would heal within oh two weeks.
Then four weeks, then six weeks, and I’m looking at at least six more weeks of this and I can’t put any weight on it. So for me right now, I have a mobility impairment and I am a, a person with a physical disability, um, through most of this summer. And I’m a really active person. And it’s, uh, it’s been really good to be able to think about this through the lens of state parks.
[00:05:10] Stina: Well, thank you for coming on, and thank you for talking about your trip. So you went to Frontenac State Park and because you’re. Yeah, not driving at the moment.
[00:05:21] Sherry: Yeah, I can’t drive. Um, I can’t put any weight to my foot whatsoever. Uh, I can barely exercise. Um, so I had actually just gotten done with a hiking trip in Scotland and England when this happened in England.
Um, and I came back, was really excited for a summer of biking and hiking and. Um, I saw that you Stina wanted to produce this episode about track chairs and state parks, and I thought, huh, I really miss being outdoors and going to state parks. So we booked a chair. Um, my spouse Drew and I went out, tried it out, and it was wonderful.
Um, it was so great to be able to get out and explore, see things that I wouldn’t, I hadn’t seen in at that time. A couple of weeks, three weeks.
[00:06:23] Ian: I know you’re all itching to hear the audio Sherry recorded at Frontenac. So let’s jump into her conversation with Ranger Jake.
[00:06:31] Sherry: So first of all, what’s your name and how long have you worked here and. What’s your experience with these things?
[00:06:36] Jake: Uh, so my name is Jake. Uh, I am the Ranger at Frontenac State Park.
I’ve worked here for about five years. Uh, my experience with these chairs has been less than a year. We got these chair, uh, our chair in august of last year. The DNR launched this program in 2022 with five all train track chairs, added eight in 2023. This pilot program actually went back pre Covid, um, I think 20 17, 18.
They first started like rolling it out slowly. Um, but they’ve been really expanding it. And then, so we have another nine shares, um, coming in at the collection of parks. There again with Fort Snelling getting a second share. We’re hopeful to get a second share here as well. I mean, oftentimes couples will want to go out together in a chair.
Or multiple people will want reservations on the same day. So it would be nice to have two. Um, and you know, we have people who use these on our interpretive programs, like on, on hikes and walks. They’ll bring these, they’ll come on the walks and hikes with these. They’re usable by people camping.
They’ll book the chair for a weekend and they’ll camp with it.
[00:07:32] Sherry: I had wondered about that ’cause some of these campsites are, are hike-to campsites, right? Mm-Hmm.
[00:07:36] Jake: Um, so we have hike-to campsites. Um. But the people who have used it have used it in our drive-in campground because there’s electric electricity and so-
[00:07:44] Sherry: So wait, so they can recharge it?
[00:07:46] Jake: Yeah. Oh yeah. It’s a simple plugin. I mean, you plug it into a wall outlet. Yeah.
[00:07:51] Sherry: Oh, that is so cool.
[00:07:52] Jake: And so people will have it all weekend. They’ll, they’ll keep it in their campsite. They’ll charge it up even if they don’t have electricity at their campsite, uh, they’ll just store it by the bathroom building at one of the plugins there.
[00:08:01] Sherry: So this enables people with disabilities to camp as well?
[00:08:04] Jake: Yes. It’s not just hiking, it’s, it’s interacting with the park in any way that people can interact with it.
[00:08:11] Sherry: Oh, that’s awesome.
[00:08:11] Jake: It’s also available in the winter. That being said, we’ve had it for a year and last winter was undeserving of the name.
Yes. And so we didn’t really get a chance, but these tracks are suitable for ice and snow. Uh, we’ve not been able to test it yet.
Okay. Very rigorously, but on, on terrain is the only place I could see that. I mean, you know, you, you were in some of our more adventurous terrain and that’s the only place I could see there being an issue.
Um, otherwise it should be, it’s plenty capable of ice and snow.
[00:08:40] Sherry: Um, so tell me, I’ve seen some maps where there’s like a recommended route. Can you talk about that a little bit?
[00:08:47] Jake: Yeah, so we have that for our location as well. Every location that has a track chair, uh, has a map with recommended route or routes, depending on their terrain, the track chair can go on most of the trails that we have at the park, uh, there’s a few places that the chair cannot go. Uh, it’s essentially stairs in our location. And so while I am no doubt its ability to get down the stairs. I don’t think it could do so safely and I don’t think it could get back up. Um, so it can go anywhere in our park except for the few trails that have stairs and for us.
That’s on the face of the north facing bluff. On the bluff side, trails is essentially the only place in the park it can’t go.
[00:09:19] Sherry: Okay. And so when I talked to folks here before coming, you, I heard a lot of stories of people having battery anxiety. Can you tell me about a time that might have happened?
[00:09:29] Jake: It’s happened multiple times actually.
And so we encourage people to make full use of the chair, and if the chair dies on the trails, then uh, we do our best to retrieve the chair, um, and the individual as best as possible. Um, so that’s. It’s a thing. Our terrain is very difficult for these chairs. Nominally, they have a range of seven miles, uh, but these chairs see a lot of use on hard terrain.
And so it’s not seven miles here. You’re li you’re probably to get between two and four miles, depending on a variety of factors, the temperature, um, how large the individual is, who’s using the chair, the trails that you take it on. Um, yeah, all these factor into how far you can go.
[00:10:08] Sherry: Yeah. Yeah. And I know that a lot of folks with disabilities are also adventure seekers.
I know currently I am one. Um, and I’m an adventure seeker. What’s the balance of like safety and adventurousness on these things?
[00:10:23] Jake: Really these chairs? Okay, they’re little tanks. You can’t get into a situation unless you’re doing something like driving it over a cliff or down stairs that you really can’t get into a situation that these chairs aren’t gonna be able to get out of.
Again, unless you’re doing something that’s unreasonably dangerous. There’s 400 pounds at the base of the chair, very wide set tracks about 40 inches wide, and there is wheels set behind the chair. You cannot tip it over backwards, even though you feel like you’re doing so. We’ve taken it up the steepest terrain that we have without stairs, and you’re doing wheelies the entire way up because it’s on the back of the tracks and on that wheel on the back.
But you can’t tip it over backwards. There’s just too much weight on the ground for you to tip it backwards.
[00:11:06] Sherry: Okay, cool. Oh, can people under 18 use this?
[00:11:09] Jake: Yes they can. Um, I mean, we’ve had people as young as 11 use it. Uh, so in addition to the left and right hand control, the right hand or the left hand control can be removed from the chair.
And walked alongside with, uh, a parent or another caregiver, um, operating the chair on behalf of the people operating if they have issues with their hands or things like that. Oh,
[00:11:28] Sherry: oh my gosh. That is so cool.
[00:11:30] Jake: That was an additional feature that the state went for, and it’s a fantastic one. We’ve had people from, you know, preteen up to, I mean, I didn’t ask how old they were, but I’m assuming seventies.
[00:11:42] Sherry: Oh, that’s awesome.
[00:11:42] Jake: Yeah, there’s no age, there’s no age limits or requirements for the chair. If it’s a young person will have a support person along with them to either operate it for them or be there with them to guide them.
[00:11:53] Sherry: Yeah, makes total sense.
[00:11:54] Jake: Support people are very important for this endeavor.
One thing we cannot do is transfer people into the chair or out of the chair ourselves. So people need to be able to do that. We have a transfer board if they need to transfer from an existing, uh, wheelchair mobility device to the chair itself, but we cannot physically help them get in or out.
[00:12:12] Sherry: Right.
That makes total sense. Alright, so yeah, tell me, tell me how to use this thing.
[00:12:17] Jake: Alright, so we’ll begin orientation. So what I’ll have you do first, I’ll have you sit down here. Um, just to kind of orient you to the controls. We can, so there’s a lot of stuff that can be adjusted for comfort.
[00:12:27] Stina: Okay.
[00:12:27] Jake: Um. So the, the footings right here can be raised lower to remove depending on what your preference is going to be.
Um, so to orient you to the controls, um, so we have the control panel right here. Um, on the right hand side, if your left hand dominant, I would prefer to use. Your left hand control can be switched over to this pedestal over here, but it defaults right here. So on the control panel itself, power buttons right up here, we have horn [beep beep], which is fantastic and powerful.
Uh, this, these blue buttons here will. Alter the power that the chair has is that we usually just recommend people keep it at five. It affects speed a little bit. This doesn’t go fast. It’s has a speed of about three to three and a half miles an hour. So, um, a decent walking speed. Um, you can lower it by, it goes between one and five.
Uh, but more important than speed is power. And when you’re facing, when you’re on the hills in the terrain that we have, you’ll really feel it when you’re going up hills. You’ll feel it if you’re at a lower power. Um. In, in general, you can play around with that as, as you’d like. There’s also headlights on here and then a few other modes.
But in general, none, none of these buttons are gonna be needed. The headlights just gonna drain the battery faster for no gain, but people have used it at night, um, which
[00:13:41] Sherry: Oh wow. People have used these things at night?
[00:13:43] Jake: Mm-Hmm. Which I would recommend coming in June using it at night. We have. Uh, lightning bugs, butterflies.
It’s, it’s, it’s magical.
[00:13:51] Sherry: Oh, that’s cool.
[00:13:51] Jake: Um, so, uh, here’s the, this is the control panel itself. So moving on to the actual controls of the machine, this is, is your movement. That’s what moves you around. And the other one is right over here. We have up and down lever. So why don’t you just start by pushing on the down lever there.
So what this is gonna do is it’s going to recline the seat forward and backwards. Not only is this a comfort thing, this is also a practicality thing. So when you’re walking along a trail, if you walk uphill, you lean forward into the hill. If you go downhill, you lean back. This is does very similar. When you want to go down a hill, you wanna lean the chair back.
When you go up the hill, you wanna lean the chair forward, and you’ll notice it’s not strictly necessary. It’s a comfort thing. ’cause if you are reclined and you go up a hill, you’re gonna be even more reclined and you’re gonna feel like you’re sitting at a dining room table chair being knocked over backwards, or a rocking chair being pushed over backwards.
And you’re gonna feel that like that’s. That’s how this feels. When it goes over these bumps, you’re gonna feel like you’re sitting in a chair tipping over backwards. Oof. Then it’s going to like you. All you have to do is learn to trust the chair and that it’s not doing that to you. It can’t do that to you with the wheel back there, you’re not gonna tip it over backwards. Alright, so, uh, before we actually get you rolling, we’re gonna, uh, have you strap in with the safety harness here. And it’s more for the, it’s more for the just safety. It’s also a comfort thing. I can tell you, this thing is gonna rattle you around and shake you up like a can of soda because it doesn’t have suspension.
You’re going to feel the bumps every bump that’s in the trail, you’re going to feel, so it’s, you’re-
[00:15:23] Sherry: I’m really gonna be one with nature, right?
[00:15:25] Jake: You are going to be one with nature. Yes. And the more strapped in you are to the chair, the less shaken you’re gonna be. Because when it goes over a bump, bump, bump, if you are strapped to the chair, you’re just gonna go bump bump.
If you’re not, you’re gonna shake around a bit.
[00:15:39] Sherry: Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:41] Jake: So if you want to come, you can help her get it to the point where she’s comfortable. Like you don’t want it to be so tight that you can’t move, like move around or, or, or breathe normally. But you do want to be secure. Um. And you know, you don’t want it to try and throw you out of the chair if you come over a big bump fast, which you know, probably wouldn’t do, but better safe than sorry.
[00:16:01] Sherry: Okay. So there’s all these straps you have to tighten in just the right way on the harness itself, that holds you into the chair. So you gotta be like pretty good with backpack straps, basically.
[00:16:12] Drew: Yeah, they’re good. Back straps. Straps.
[00:16:15] Jake: And it’s all down to personal preference, you know. You, you need to be strapped in for safety.
Some people were very loose just as a deterrent against being thrown out, but they prefer to have that freedom of movement and they don’t mind being rattled around a little bit. Gotcha. That’s fine.
[00:16:29] Drew: Yeah. So you kind of have a four part harness right on right now, Sherry, is what I’m saying? Yeah.
[00:16:34] Jake: Yeah, that’s, that’s the only safety harness.
It’s just this four point harness. There’s no other PPE necessary.
[00:16:40] Sherry: Oh, wow. That’s really cool.
[00:16:41] Jake: So here’s the battery monitor. Mm-Hmm. And so, seven bars of battery. Um, once he gets down to below one, it will start to flash. You’ll notice a decline in performance. Um. In general, people have gotten this stranded on the trail.
We’ll coordinate to get them off the trail, um, and then we’ll pick up the machine. It’s really not a problem because anywhere the chair can go, our trailer can go with our UTV, so we can recover the chair in pretty much any circumstance, as you imagine, going uphill are gonna drain the battery a lot faster than going down.
So one of the most common trails is right here from the office up to Eagle Point. Hm. Um, so by the time people get up to Eagle Point, they’re down to about two bars of battery and that freaks people out. And some people will stop on the way up, but it uses so much less coming down. That’s typically not a problem.
We, we have to replace these batteries on about a yearly basis. Um, they’re just, they’re the standard, um, wheelchair battery that you can get at, you know, any battery store. Mm-Hmm. Um, and they’re. Replacement process is very simple, and this is near the end of its life. So you’ll see the most decreased performance on it, which then people will be able to get on it even.
And that being said, you’re going to be able to go for miles on it.
[00:17:55] Sherry: Okay. All right.
[00:17:56] Jake: On the back of this, we have. Just a quick reference guide. So obviously if you get injured on the chair in some way, um, dial nine one one, um, and then call the park office. We know the park, we will know where you are. We can come find you and help you.
Um, it’s never happened, but just always has to be there. So call the office if the battery on the unit runs out, if the chair malfunctions or gets damaged in some way. Um, or if you become stuck on the trail, uh, that’s more common in wet conditions. Mm-Hmm, this thing can handle most things. But mud is mud.
And it can, it can fun things. Yeah, it can get stuck. Understood. There’s also a few user tips on the bottom things I’ve already gone onto. So, you know, tilt the chair when you’re going on a slope and go slowly over obstacles. Take obstacles at an angle. You know, the things I’ve already gone over with you, but they’re just on this reference guide here.
[00:18:57] Ian: All right, back to Stina for more of the big picture view of why this program matters.
[00:19:03] Stina: So I’m gonna throw a couple of statistics out here. Um, the Center for Disease Control and Prevention says that about 8% of Minnesotans are living with an ambulatory disability. So that is related to walking, climbing stairs, ambulatory.
Your move, your physical movements. Yeah. And other studies estimate more about 10% of Minnesota’s population. So regardless, we’re talking about at least a couple hundred thousand people. Mm-Hmm. As well as their families and caregivers. Yeah. So that’s why this is so important and like being in the outdoors is essential for your mental wellbeing.
Right? Yeah. And. So for the DNR and our trail systems and our parks departments, to have mobility aids that kind of go above and beyond what other mobility aids can do is. It’s honestly kind of magical.
[00:20:03] Sherry: Yeah. Honestly, like, um, the people with disabilities that I know of, if they, if they have a power chair, they can go on, um, a recreational trail, a paved recreational trail, right?
And there’s plenty of those that are pretty accessible within the cities, and they do get used occasionally. But the idea of actually going on a real trail at a real state park on grass and rocks and mud and it, I could have gone over boulders with that thing, with this accessibility track chair. Um, and there’s something really cool about this idea of doing something bold and fun.
I mean, just be, just because if you’re a person with a disability, it doesn’t mean that you don’t wanna take risks and do cool things. Um, and. You wanna go out there and push yourself sometimes if you’re that sort of personality. And I certainly am. Um, so I really wanted to push this thing. I wanted to see how fast I could go, how, how much I could lean forward or lean back and, and where I could force myself to go.
So it ended up being really thrilling in a way that just hanging out in a power chair like I’m gonna do at this Minnesota State Fair. Who also has a rental power chair program. You know, that’s gonna be a very different experience than this kind of track chair at a state park.
[00:21:27] Stina: Frontenac isn’t the only state park with these chairs.
Uh, they were first adopted in June, 2022, which is amazing because mm-hmm. The world was. Interesting at that time with the Covid Pandemic. Uh, so they’re currently at 13 state parks so far, including Fort Snelling, which is just down the road from us, Split Rock Lighthouse up on the North Shore, Lake Bemidji in the land of Paul Bunyan, and Itasca State Park, where the Mississippi River begins its journey.
And so what we’re talking about when we’re talking about the track chairs that we’re going to. Really get into the details. These are all terrain electric wheelchairs that have tracks instead of wheels. So imagine the tracks that you see on like a backhoe or a tank. They’re extremely rugged and, and we’ll hear, we’ll hear them in action in a little bit.
[00:22:14] Sherry: Yeah.
[00:22:15] Stina: So these are great for folks to explore more areas of the park, including trails that are not suitable for regular, uh, traditional wheelchairs. For example, Split Rock State Park has a paved wheelchair accessible trail that is half a mile. But, they also have five and a half miles of trails that are currently accessible with the use of the track chair, which is a huge improvement.
Myre-Big Island State Park, down near Albert Lea, it’s about an hour outside of Rochester. Every single one of their 16 miles of hiking trails is accessible with their track chair.
[00:22:48] Sherry: That’s incredible.
And if you think about it, every single person knows someone with mobility impairment. Literally everyone.
And. There’s people in your life that would probably love to take a hike and just don’t think they can get through it. Don’t think that they can do it. Um, whether that’s your, you know, your, your grandmother, uh, your friend who got a roller derby injury back in the day. There’s a lot of people that can’t do a traditional hike, and if they knew about this program, they would be able to leverage this and, and do it.
So this is about. Working towards universal accessibility for our parks.
[00:23:28] Stina: Right, because accessibility doesn’t mean necessarily that your mobility disability is something that you are born with or that you got as you age. Sometimes people have temporary disabilities. Mm-Hmm. And sometimes they’re ones that arrive later in life. And adaptive technology really is good for anyone who needs it. The Minnesota DNR, they don’t make you like check a box of like, what kind of disabled are you? Yeah. It’s just you need to borrow this chair? Awesome. Yeah. We can reserve it for you.
[00:24:05] Sherry: One of the cool things about the disability community is that we don’t, we don’t do that.
Right? Even, even, yeah. It’s like you, oh, you need an accommodation. We’re not gonna try and. Make you prove that you need that accommodation. And this is just an accommodation for using trails. You know, and, and you’ll hear it in the recording, that the battery life of these things sometimes leaves something to be desired, right?
And I would say that it’s a little higher battery anxiety than using. For those who are familiar with e-bikes, I would say that e-bike battery anxiety is about. Half of what using, using one of these track chairs is because obviously when the battery runs out you’re stuck and you need basically to be rescued.
So there is, there is that sort of level of thinking through that as battery technology gets better, the fact that these things exist hopefully will be backwards compatible with whatever new batteries are coming out. I think that’s the one downside that I experienced, but. Um, if you’re a person with dis with a disability who’s already using power chairs, you’re well acquainted with battery anxiety, so.
[00:25:17] Stina: And they’re local.
They’re made in Marshall, Minnesota, and-
[00:25:22] Sherry: I did not know that.
[00:25:22] Stina: Oh, yeah. I talked to someone who. I got to help weld some of the prototypes. I just mentioned it to my friend Michael earlier today, and he was like, oh yeah, I grew up in Marshall and my dad knows the guy because in Marshall, everyone knows everyone apparently.
And he was like, yeah, I got to help weld one of the prototypes with the track chairs. And I was like, that’s wonderful. That’s awesome. Um, so as the technology changes, as things need repaired or updates or new batteries, it’s nice that they’re from Minnesota.
Yeah, they’re just down the road.
[00:25:58] Sherry: And that’s easier to sell at the legislature, across party lines, of course, because it’s economic development.
[00:26:03] Stina: Absolutely.
[00:26:19] Jake: A lovely ash tree that was taken out by emerald ash borer. There’s a nice, um, uneven terrain here,
[gravel crunching] [Sherry cackles in delight]
so you, it like there’s a lot of movement forward and backwards and it can be unnerving. But honestly, it’s nothing like this thing will go over these parking bollards without issue. I like, it’s a, it’s a tank.
[00:26:42] Sherry: Yeah. I, I am, I’m gonna be the type that actually maybe has to be reeled in a little bit.
[00:26:47] Drew: We knew, we discussed this on the way over. It is known.
[00:26:51] Jake: Well, and ultimately when we first got the chair before it was made available to the public, we had staff go to places in the park where it shouldn’t be taken because we needed to test its limits. Right. And we never found anything where. With the chair that caused any concern for us.
[00:27:07] Sherry: And, and how fun was, were those days for you all?
[00:27:10] Jake: Oh, super fun.
Like, we got to be at work. We got to be paid to use this fantastic device and take it to places where it reasonably never should be taken. But the thing handled all of it without breaking a sweat. We’ve not taken it down stairs. I don’t advise doing that again. I actually think it would make it down.
Like if you look at how long the tracks are. Yeah, I actually think it would… don’t do that. Okay. Like you never don’t do that. But you know, the thing is like, again, 400 pounds and it’s probably what, six feet long that the wheel base is like. It’s incredibly large.
[00:27:45] Sherry: Oh my gosh. This is awesome. Alright. I’m itching to go have fun.
[electric whirring]
Oh, we’re coming up on a big old hill. The steepest one. Um, okay, I’m just gonna pause at the top of this hill, Drew. How, uh, what percent grade do you think this this hill is that we’re about to face?
[00:28:06] Drew: Oh, I mean, it’s, it’s steep. Uh, it’s not, it’s not like mountain steep, but-
[00:28:11] Sherry: I think it’s a 10% grade.
[00:28:12] Drew: I think. I think that’s not wrong.
[00:28:14] Sherry: Maybe even more than that.
[00:28:16] Drew: It’s, uh, we’re, uh, we’re definitely, we’re definitely dropping, gonna be dropping at a, at a decent descent rate, is what I’m saying.
[00:28:23] Sherry: Yeah. Okay. So picture the scene. You’re in this brand new track chair, it’s little tank. You’re a little nervous, you’ve got the biggest grass covered you know, relatively smooth surface area. You’re at the top of the hill. You’ve got this beautiful, um, basswood tree on your left. You’re seeing monarchs and wildflowers. It’s a serene setting, but you’re literally out in the middle of a state park with your person. Okay. I’m just glad that I remembered that downhill means lean back.
So here I go. Wish me luck, Drew.
[00:29:00] Drew: Luck!
[00:29:02] Sherry: Famous last words, oh man. Okay. Okay, so, so far, so good. I just feel.
Yeah, no, I feel it feels pretty good. In fact, I’m gonna, I’m gonna push it here and at the bottom of the hill there’s this little curve. If this is a cross country ski tr ski trail, I wouldn’t be surprised. This is probably everybody’s favorite downhill. Oh yeah. There we go. I made it. It was fine. It was fine.
[musical interlude]
I wanna talk about the in-between stuff. Okay. Like, and this is the thing, like if you’ve ever dated someone, take, uh, cared for someone, had a mobility impairment, like you will know. That it’s the in-between stuff that able-bodied people do not think about. Right? It’s the, oh, well we have wheelchairs, um, and there’s a ramp in front of this place, and you get there and you’re like, okay, there’s a wheelchair, but it’s not the kind of wheelchair I can use my arms to push.
I have to have somebody push me. That’s not, that’s not a great accommodation. Right? Especially if you didn’t bring someone to push you. And then there’s that. Going to the bathroom. I’m so excited to talk about peeing with a disability. Um, let me tell you that nobody talks about the idea that a half the bathrooms you’re gonna go into don’t have push buttons, and all of the doors are super heavy.
This is also at state parks, like state parks, some of those doors. I looked at ’em and I was like, oh, I would never get that open. Okay, cool. And oftentimes the path to, uh. The bathroom is not necessarily something you’d wanna use the track chair for. So it’s just one of those things that like I, I wish that we could sort of, as we work to improve this program, as we think about accessibility in general, it’s those in between things.
Like, do I have to, as a person with a disability. Hold time, how much I’m drinking my water so that I can hold my pee long enough that I know that I will not have to transfer to a toilet that may or may not be accessible for me. Mm-Hmm. You know what I mean? Um, and just, I mean, a lot of folks, people with disabilities actually, you know, go places with a helper, but not everybody has that accommodation, so.
[00:31:41] Stina: Right. And I was thinking, let’s say I’m a person who wants to use the track chair. And how am I getting to the state park itself?
[00:31:51] Sherry: Yeah.
[00:31:52] Stina: How am I getting from the vehicle that I arrived in to the front desk to get the track chair? And what if I wanna go on a long hike, but my caregiver or my partner, whoever’s with me, doesn’t? Mm-Hmm.
So it’s, it’s, it is those InBetween things Yeah. Of. There’s so many factors beyond just the ta-da, there’s a chair, right?
[00:32:21] Sherry: Yeah.
[00:32:22] Stina: Which is great, and.
We’re getting there.
[00:32:28] Sherry: Yeah. Yeah. It’s one of the things about being connected with the disability advocacy community is like, it’s like, yes, thank you for this thing. Thank you so much for this thing. It’s so important that this thing exists, and let’s talk about all the things around the thing, all the connective tissue around the thing and how all the different things that you might need to look at changing.
Um, I was really pleased that Ranger Jake even talked about, um. Removing or, uh, you know, changing some of the trails so that there wa that it, there weren’t two steps down. There was just a path down, even if it was to the side. It’s, it’s those little things about retrofitting a whole environment to go with these chairs, but the fact that the chair is there in our state parks helps rangers.
And people who are on the trails think differently and begin to look for those opportunities to do these little emergent things to make the whole system more accessible for everyone.
[00:33:25] Stina: Yeah. As a planner and a person who’s done planning and, um, I’ve worked on like aging in place plans, uh, for communities.
But when we are designing for folks with disability, we’re, it’s not just. Looking at all of the adaptive technology and the mobility aids that we have available. It’s planning from the top. So planning from the very beginning and not just checking the boxes of what is ADA compliant, so we don’t get sued.
Mm-Hmm. Because I’ve seen a lot of communities, a lot of cities and agencies go that route instead of going the route of how am I having the best experience for my constituents and for my community members so that they aren’t just surviving and catching up with everyone? They’re thriving and we’re designing for them first, rather than, here are these extra tools and here’s these extra ramps that we added.
[00:34:26] Sherry: Yeah. And there’s a ton of places, obviously, nonprofits, uh, advocacy organizations, the Minnesota Council on Disability. Um, one of their biggest things that they do as a state agency is, is shepherd good legislation that has to do with applying ADA and giving grants and things like that, but then implementing. It’s, so when you talk about…
it’s this, this filling or in the gaps around things, this implementation piece around, um, accessibility is super, super important. So yeah, you need the top down, but then you also need, um, people with disabilities to come along on a process and say, okay, here’s where this thing that we just got could use a little bit more connective tissue, a little bit more assistance, a little bit more, um, insight about it, what it’s really like to have, um, in this case, a mobility impairment, but that applies across a number of disability disabilities.
[00:35:24] Stina: So in a lot of planning spaces, we talk about making sure everyone has a seat at the table, making sure everyone’s invited to the table. And I think when we, when we talk about designing for folks with disabilities, it’s, I’m about to bring the table to you.
Mm-Hmm. Like. I can invite you all I can, but if you cannot get to the table, then what are we doing?
[00:35:47] Sherry: And how tall is the table? And how wide are these spaces that allow wheelchairs? And do they allow power chairs too? It’s all the things. Mm-Hmm.
[00:35:56] Stina: So now that we are a few weeks post Adventure Day, how do you feel?
[00:36:06] Sherry: I feel like I wanna get back out. I wanna use one of these track chairs again. I wanna go visit Rager Jake. I will have a much better idea of what the battery life is on these guys, and I will know what trails. I wanna go on. Um, even right after this, about a week after, my spouse looked at me, he said, I think I have the optimal trail planned for us next time if you wanna go again.
’cause he’s absolutely the best spouse on earth. Um, and I think I, that’s what I wanna do because you’re right. Nature is, being in nature is such a huge part of our mental health, and oftentimes people with disabilities do not get a chance to, um, because the world is not built for them to go off the curb of their front stoop.
Um, you know, they don’t get a chance to do this. So I am so pleased. With this program. I’m glad it exists and I can only get better as we have folks like Ranger Jake, thinking more and more about filling in that, those gaps.
[00:37:09] Stina: You think you would ever try, any of the camping options that we learned about?
[00:37:14] Sherry: That was one of the coolest things when he talked about that.
It’s like, oh my gosh. Yeah. I, my spouse, like, like let’s say he talked about two folks who both use power chairs, um, able to camp now because. They can both plug in these chairs and they can go off on one of the hike-to sites and just with a, with a, with a plugin. Those the ones with power and. They can camp.
I mean, that’s so cool.
[00:37:42] Stina: Can I throw you some research?
[00:37:43] Sherry: Heck yeah.
[00:37:44] Stina: So if you are interested in an overnight visit at one of our state parks, 20 of our state parks currently have accessible campsites, uh, physical accessible camp sites. Many of them are electric sites, so that folks can plug in their chair.
There are also some rustic style ones too. 29 state parks offer accessible lodging in the form of cabins and guest houses. If you are like me and you’re struggling with mosquitoes this year, that might be the best option. Um, plus with the accessibility pass, uh, camping and lodging is half price during the week, Sundays through Thursdays.
[00:38:21] Sherry: Oh, so cool.
That’s so cool. What did you learn Stina about? About, I, I don’t know why I keep returning to bathrooms, but did you learn anything about bathrooms at state parks? Like, ’cause so often they’re pit toilets or they’re, there’s a random sort of accessible, uh, plastic bathroom somewhere like, and plastic bathrooms by the way.
Totally legit. Mm-Hmm. They can be really great. But did you learn anything about accessible bathrooms at state parks?
[00:38:50] Stina: I didn’t, um.
[00:38:53] Sherry: Okay. So maybe we don’t include this question, but I thought it would be fun to talk about.
[00:38:56] Stina: From a personal perspective. Yeah. The doors are heavy and like none of them are electric.
Right. There’s no swinging door. You can’t right. Wave and have it open. You have to have someone assist you. Mm-Hmm. And that really cuts off a, a, a level of independence that, yeah. Personally, I like not taking someone with me to the bathroom.
[00:39:28] Sherry: I, yeah, I mean, I’m thinking that if I do this again, one of the other things I’ll probably do is take one of those little porta jane things with me just in case.
’cause Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Uh, peeing in the woods with my anatomy is not the easiest thing on earth. No. Um, okay, so I have this dream. Of this addition to this program. Okay. In state parks that there will be, you know how they have like these solar panels that power different aspects of state, state parks. I want a solar panel station with like a massive battery or something in it where you can actually make that pull and repower your chair just enough to get to safety or.
Where you are doing, or you use a solar panel on the bathroom that works, the battery operated push door. Push button door. Yes. Mm-Hmm. I mean, we’re living in the future. There is no reason we cannot use, um, eco-friendly options to add to accessibility because-
[00:40:37] Stina: use the sun. It’s free.
[00:40:38] Sherry: Heck yeah.
Totally free resource.
[00:40:43] Stina: Yeah. I’m thinking about, uh, when you do the trail system at. Fort Snelling, how you get down into the valley and then there’s like a picnic shelter. Why not have solar or a recharging station that is built to be like, if you are using the track chair, here’s a recommend recommended route where if you wanna have an extra long day, you take this route, this is the picnic area, have a delicious meal, and then yes, you can keep on keeping on and get to enjoy even more nature.
[00:41:16] Sherry: Oh, I love this. Mm-Hmm. Let’s go. Let’s do it.
[00:41:30] Jake: And there’s funding available. Um, so in addition to new chairs, um, an individual came forward and donated a million dollars for the program. Oh, so it’s the, that’s funding this round of new chairs. In addition, there’s funding for parks to do trail modifications. So, you know, if there’s a, a trail that has like three steps on it.
If that could be rerouted to make it suitable for the chair, that’s what that funding is in place to do.
[00:41:52] Sherry: Oh, very cool. What is that fund out of now? Where can, where can people donate to that?
[00:41:57] Jake: So that’s not like necessarily a donatable fund that was just, uh, a generous individual who came forward and provided that money.
Okay. Um, but this, this, as you can imagine, this program has been, you know. Yeah, universally accepted and praise and not, not everything the government does receives support from everyone, but this is one of those things, yeah, people see the value in it. They understand why it’s important, and so the more people who can use the chair, who can get the word out, you know, lot like people have come forward offering to donate.
Like all the chairs that we have are donated because it’s such a valuable thing. That’s so cool. So right now, you know, while money is always useful. It’s getting the word out, making sure people know about ’em and use them. That’s, that’s what we want.
[00:42:39] Sherry: Yeah. Yeah. What, uh, do you have a connection to people with disabilities?
What makes you so passionate about this program?
[00:42:46] Jake: Well, I mean, honestly when, I’ll be honest, when I first kind of, ’cause they put out a call for parks to get involved with the track charge. Like, do you have a, is your park suitable for it? I put in for it. ’cause I thought it would just be something nifty and something like unique for Frontenac.
’cause I’m always on the lookout for something to make the park better. Mm-Hmm. Um, but interacting with the individuals who use the chair has been incredibly humbling and incredibly moving. Hearing people’s stories, you know, after, you know, something that happened at a diagnosis or an incident, you know, they’ve now been out on a trail in 10 or 20 years and just yeah.
Hearing their experience has just been. Very powerful. And you know, my father-in-Law has, is an amputee. And so he’s, he was actually, he came out before the chair was open to the public to be one of our testers. And that’s, you know, seeing his experience on the chair and he’s, you know, very similar experience.
He’s just not been. Out in nature for years and years, it was, it’s become very, it’s something I’m very passionate about now, just, just seeing its impact on people.
[00:43:45] Sherry: That’s awesome.
Yeah. I definitely cried.
[00:43:47] Jake: [laughing] Yeah. It’s, it’s a thing like, it, it’s, it’s so, it’s super cool to be able to be involved with the project and support it.
[00:44:07] Stina: Did you find when you were out on the track chair? ’cause we can hear it whirring a little bit. Mm-Hmm. Did you find that that changed your experience of the outdoors? Like, could you still hear birds chirping and bees buzzing?
[00:44:23] Sherry: I could, I could actually. Aw, it was a, a pretty quiet experience. Um, it, it, I’m trying to think of an equivalent.
To some, but no, it really did fade into the background. It’s a really well designed chair, um, that is ergonomically pleasing. It was very comfortable. Um, the soundscape of the chair was not an issue. Um, if I really wanna, I could hear bird calls for sure. And then I would just stop the chair and continue to listen to my favorite birds calling to each other.
Yeah, it was great.
[00:44:59] Stina: I think of. Sometimes when I go to parks and there’s these scenic overlooks, and then the handrail is at like, like if I was a kindergartner, I would not be able to see the sights unless I was lifted up. And I wonder if the spaces have been designed so that if you were in a manual wheelchair or in a track chair, you can still see all the beautiful overlooks.
[00:45:23] Sherry: From the overlooks that I have seen for manual push chairs.
They seem to be better in the last five, 10 years. Um, and I would say, and the one at Frontenac doesn’t have a railing at all, and I actually could have gone over the edge…
talk about that balancing of safety and adventure. It felt thrilling to be able to just pull right up to the edge on my. Track chair. Um, although, uh, I was really glad by that point that I’d had a lot of practice driving it so that I could take, so I could get back from the ledge and, and negotiate that properly.
Um, that was a little more than thrilling for a couple of seconds, but it was mostly great. So one of the things too that kind of surprised me about this thing is I, I believed with the. The tank treads that it could probably handle most surfaces, but the hardest thing to do was trust that it would handle really steep grades.
Mm-hmm. And I actually took a couple of steep grades, both down and up. Um, and they were thrilling and, and I, what helped me is that. When you think about it, a, just knowing that Ranger, Jake and his compatriots had tested these chairs with like helmets on for fun to make sure that no one would be hurt and tackled the absolute best, uh, grades.
In all of Frontenac with these things, and you just know that rangers are doing this everywhere that these things are. So I feel really good knowing that those great people, um, are taking care of people with disabilities. But I also, I. Just when you’re sitting in it before you get in it, you notice that there’s this massive, um, and a lot of power chairs have this, there’s this massive backstop, these two big wheels, that if you do tip over backwards, they catch you.
Um, and these things are rated for a really, really heavy weight, not only for the chair, but I think up to a 250 pound person, if I recall. Um, and if you were to go backwards, the wheels would catch you So. Yeah, it’s a pretty safe, agile machine.
[00:47:46] Stina: And how was like the Whee Factor?
[00:47:48] Sherry: Oh, it was great. I, yeah, I mean it, it.
I, I didn’t push it too fast with speed because, um, the battery anxiety. The battery anxiety, yeah. Yeah. But, um, because yeah, the battery does go up a lot faster when you got pills. You can actually see the battery go down after you’ve taken a hill like that. But, um, it is thrilling. It’s totally worth it.
[00:48:14] Stina: And everyone should be…
the world should be able to be thrilling for every single person who goes out into it.
[00:48:21] Sherry: Yeah. I literally threw up my hands into a VA victory V at the top of a hill. So, yeah.
[00:48:27] Stina: Oh, Sherry, what’s next? Are you going back to back to Frontenac, or…
[00:48:32] Sherry: I’m totally going back to Frontenac.
[00:48:33] Stina: Gonna check out some of the other parks as well?
[00:48:35] Sherry: You know, that’s an idea. Maybe we could go to a brewery, uh, by the way. Uh, New Ulm has a really accessible patio I discovered. Hmm. Um, but, um, yeah, I’ll probably, I’ve got a long recovery from the surgery that I’m about to have, so I think that that’s kind of the main factor that might keep me, um, keep me Okay.
Is just maintaining my connection to nature through that time of not being able to put any weight on my foot. So, yeah, I think I’m gonna check it out.
[00:49:08] Stina: Get up north when the leaves change.
[00:49:10] Sherry: Heck yeah. Mm. Split Rock sounds fun.
[00:49:13] Stina: It’s beautiful up there. Awesome. It’s magical.
[00:49:16] Sherry: And then I will definitely ask the rangers up there.
Okay. Tell me about your testing of these chairs. What’d y’all do?
[00:49:24] Stina: And if we don’t take the mics, maybe they’ll tell you some really juicy secrets.
[00:49:27] Sherry: Yes. We’re not supposed to tell you this but… Mm-Hmm.
[00:49:35] Stina: Well, thank you so much, Sherry.
[00:49:37] Sherry: You are welcome.
[00:49:39] Stina: And I look forward to getting to tell even more stories of accessible technology and how Minnesotans interact with our spaces, our streets, our parks, everything, and how planners and advocates and everyone else can help make Minnesota more accessible to everyone.
[00:50:03] Ian: Thanks for joining us for this episode of The Streets.mn Podcast. The show is released under a creative commons attribution, non-commercial non derivative license. So feel free to republish the episode as long as you are not altering it and you’re not profiting from it. The music in this episode is by Eric Brandt in the Urban Hillbilly Quartet.
This episode was produced and transcribed by Stina Neel with field recordings by Sherry Johnson and was hosted and edited by me, Ian R Buck. We’re always looking to feature new voices on the Streets.mn Podcast. So if you have ideas for future episodes, drop us a line at [podcast@streets.mn]. Streets.mn is a community blog and podcast and relies on contributions from audience members like you.
If you can make a one-time or recurring donation, you can find more information about doing so at [https://street .mn/donate]. Find other listeners and discuss this episode in your favorite social media platform using the hashtag #StreetsMNPodcast. Until next time, take care.
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